alright to get this thing started, i want to consider what we mean by growth. in another conversation, that continues to heat, the church wants to move into a new building to accelerate growth. What does it mean to grow? of course our seminary answers are going to be high minded and negative towards the church growth (population) movement. and rightly so. But what are the standards to measure progress? or better yet are there such things as standards, and is there such a thing as progress?
sidenote. i hope that i am not treating this as a message board, but i want to spur conversation, so maybe we need a message board, or not? but who's to tell us how we use this blog? especially if more than 1 person is involved.
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well, i'm not certain how this thing works either, whether we need a message board or what... but i shall respond to your post here. It seems to me, that before we can talk about growth in a church we have to discuss what it means to be church. Before we can measure progress, we must have an idea of where this journey will lead. Is it one that wanders aimlessly, or is there a destination in mind? Is the church an organization by default, or are there alternative ways of understanding this life together? I dont know if we'll find our answers in scripture... maybe. It feels kinda weird to say that, because we've all been told that all the answers are found in the bible, but are they? If thats the case, why would God still speak? Do we look back to go forward? If so, how long do we continue looking back?
perhaps i mistook myself when i posted about church growth, but rather Christian growth is the issue in my mind. the questions of the journey are where i'd like to begin. church whatever it may be is a part of that journey, or is it the journey itself? Does a journey have to have a destination? I dont believe so. We can wander around aimlessly in the wilderness, and still have the pillar of fire and smoke, and manna every morning. why do we have to go somewhere, as long as we are with someone? in fact this thought in comforting in a queer way.
If we talk about wilderness, the first one I think of is the experience of Israel in the wilderness, as I think Nic did when he referred to the pillar and smoke. Nic also said we can wander around aimlessly with the pillar and smoke and manna. Was that aimless? We've always been told that they were being prepared to enter the promise land. Josh, I don't know if you remember in Master's Commission once in our discipleship class we were talking about the same thing - how the wandering essentially 'killed' all the older people who were obstinante or whatever so that the young and faithful (or whatever) could possess the land. As for me, I'm not quite sure what the message of the wilderness experience is. I just know that I feel like that's where we're going.... the church that is. The 3 of us particularly. I think frontier would be a better word. It's wild because its unknown and unfamiliar, but we're drawn to it (or forced). I'm just kind of shooting at the hip with this so, if this doesn't make sense, then you can bite me. :)
but what if the promised land is the wilderness? perhaps we can qualify aimlessly as in no perceivable end? i like the frontier too. i want to be Doc Holiday.
Not to sound all "Pentecostal-Steve-Landish," but i see this journey as a journey with God, in God, toward God. I don't really know what that means to anyone other than me. I know this is really general, and not very specific or practical, but this journey is one taken along with God, in the presence of God, with the destination being God. Therefore, the destination is a person, whatever that means. As far as the children of Israel (and even for us), could it be that the 'promised land' was just that, a promise... a dream... a vision of what could be... a communal life lived with God and in God... where the dirt serves as a symbolic metaphor of that dream. The wilderness then serves as the lived life of promise, hope even. The wilderness then is a 'place' where even though one has climbed the highest mountain, run through the fields, kissed honey lips, felt healing burning like fire, spoke with the tongue of angels, holding hands with the devil... cold as a stone, even where belief in the kingdom coming, the breaking of bonds, chains, the carrying of the cross... none of this stops the running, because we haven't found what we're looking for. (I know that was one big run on sentence, but squeazing a lil U2 in here made up for it.) This leaves me with a question... what can I do (we do) to infect others with this promise/dream/vision? Also, how can I (we) participate with God in 'the kingdom of the world becoming the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, where he will reign for ever and ever!' How can I (we) 'make' the promise 'happen' for others? for myself, even? What I'm thinking of here is similar to Bill Murray's words about Christmas at the end of Scrooged... where he talks about the making Christmas happen for everyone, everyday... anyway, I want to be Wyatt Earp.
It took me a while to get why you all were saying you wanted to be Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp. I guess I'll be Butch Kassady (?). No, Josh's last name is Butcher... Maybe I'll be Buffalo Bill.
I was thinking last night about our conversation on here, about church, the journey and such. Then, it hit me (and yes, it hurt). Could it be that before we can even talk about what it means to be church or what it means to grow as a Christian/follower of Jesus, we have to deal with what it actually means to be a Christian/follower of Jesus? I just don't want to be one of those who do not take the deconstruction far enough. In the exile, not one stone was left in place... all construction was 'deconstructed.' Perhaps this mean even our understadings (or pre-understandings, those things we bring into the conversation without really even being aware of them) or what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ needs to be challenged and deconstructed.
exactly
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